: Thank you, Pianpian. Thanks for having me. Hello everybody.

: Certainly. Now especially as we're coming back from COVID-19 quarantine, new jobs are opening up. Folks are going to be certainly interested in switching careers or getting new jobs, and maybe they have lost their jobs as a result of COVID in 2020. Now it's definitely a good time to start thinking about this. So, relationships and jobs are absolutely essential. And, if you were to listen to any self-development guru, I mean anything from Dale Carnegie to Tony Robbins, all of them certainly talk about the importance of relationship building and how it’s related to success, whether it's the one's career or in one's life or wellbeing. I mean, ultimately relationships are a really key factor in that.

If you're looking to get a new job, certainly I would start looking at your network and revisiting those relationships that you have built over the years. And, I'm sure people would love to hear from you about how are you doing and what you're looking for. And, as you're building these relationships always, see if what kind of value can you also add to your network, right? See what you can do for the people that you're speaking with. I mean, approach it from a very natural, authentic interest in what those people are doing.

: I think there are always ways to find people who might be interested or interesting, right? So I think the best way of approaching a situation where you're starting something new is to reach out to a community. There are Facebook groups, there are meetups, there are different communities or maybe there's somebody within your network. Maybe it's a second-degree connection that you can ask for an introduction. I think that those types of connections, you have to approach it from more of an exploratory point of view, right? So you're obviously not an expert. You're looking to make a jump into something. Show curiosity, show interest in people's successes, what has worked for them, ask for the best way of getting into the business.

And, and I mean, quite frankly, don't be afraid to step down. Maybe you've been a director in one role. I mean, you'll probably have to step down, maybe to individual contributor, as you're starting with a different function with a different area entirely. So be curious and open to learning. I think that would be my advice.

: That is kind of the main thing you want to get somebody's attention, you bring the value, right? You really want to see what would be interesting for that person. You want to see how you can elevate their lives, right? What can you do for them? It's not always super self-centric. Obviously, you already know what you want. You have an idea as to what you're looking to achieve, but you're about to ask in a way for a favor, right? You're asking for somebody to support you. Think about ways you can enhance that person's life. Whatever it may be, maybe there's another connection that you can introduce them to, or maybe that's, a project that you can help them with, or maybe it's something else that you can do for them to enhance their experience as well. What do you think?

: I feel like people are very willing to know to step up and help you. Provided you're showing genuine interest in what they're doing. It applies to the basics of psychology here, right? You show interest and people are very happy to share their insights. It has to come from a very authentic place. You're genuinely interested in them and what they're doing, not just pursuing, your personal agenda.

: Excellent. We just talked about the role of relationships in seeking a new job. You're looking for a new career, think about a career as this big vision, right? It's like, it's a timeline. So that's your career. You started over here, you had this big vision. You're progressing towards your vision. And, your career is a timeline. Your job is a point in that timeline that moves you towards the next step in your career. As you grow within your career, your network should certainly enhance. More connections. You should be more curious,, that is part of that growth mindset. You're curious about, what else is out there? How else am I going to grow? Who else can I learn from? What else can I do? How can I contribute? And so absolutely the relationship building is going to be essential in your career advancement. The more relationships you build, the more value you produce to your network, the more your network would be responsive to you as you're looking to progress to the next stage. The more visibility you have, the more support you have.

: How do I build relationships within my career? Yeah. So, okay. This is going to sound really straightforward. I mean, taking actions is going to be one of them, right? So you can't sit here and think, okay, well, I'm just going to build this network or these people are just going to somehow come to me. What this means is you have to do proactive outreach to your network, to your community, to people that you're interested in. Right. I mean, you have to make yourself available. The whole thing here is that you have to be putting yourself out there.

I know some of the introverts here might be cringing and being like, I am not putting myself out there. There's no way, but it doesn't actually mean that you have to be an extrovert to build value, to build a relationship. You can build relationships one at a time. It doesn't actually require you to be this extreme extrovert to talk to anybody about anything. In fact, introverts build the deepest relationships because they do take a genuine deep interest in one's well-being and thoughts and feelings and one's vision. So for an introvert, those relationships are already being built on very deep connections. Sometimes actually extroverts, they may know a whole lot of people. I mean, I am one of those extroverts. I have to make sure that the relationships that I have are not surface, that there are deep relationships right there. We're genuinely interested in them, but I have made an impact in people's lives as I go through my career. What do you think? Does that make sense?

Ultimately, it's all gonna come down to how genuine you are in that connection. How genuine is your interest?

: Very, very important. Ultimately, it's all gonna come down to how genuine you are in that connection. How genuine is your interest?

I mean, ultimately it's really great to know a whole lot of people, but the people who are going to move the needle are the ones with whom you have built the strong, deep relationship with. So, it's worth investing the time and the efforts and making that happen. I would say, given the opportunity, please do that.

I have a funny story to tell. I went to college and because I was here in the U S alone, my family wasn't here with me. I didn't quite understand that the whole relationship building was the key component. Quite honestly, I think that a lot of us didn't quite understand that, but, the folks that did, have certainly advanced further in their lives. I'm incredibly thankful for the college network that supports me. I still am great friends with them. If I need something they're certainly there for me. Had I made that a primary focus. I mean, I made academics my primary focus, but if I also made equivalently important, the social networking within that, I feel like the opportunities would have been limitless from the get-go. Obviously, I had to do some catching up to that, but that was a big lesson learned. And, that would be something that I would be teaching my kids is to make sure you value the relationships, you build those relationships from the beginning. Like it's important to get your academics straight, but it's hugely important to make sure that you are building those relationships from the very beginning, because they're the ones that you're going to be relying on throughout your career.

: Absolutely. So you're coming into the new job. I mean, take their opportunities to get to know people. From a social perspective, you're in the new world. It is difficult. We tend to put walls around, we shut down. It takes a different mindset to open yourself up and have the conversation. To ask somebody how they're doing, remember their name, next time you say hello, call them by their name. It's like music to their ears. Right. Somebody remembered their name. And I think that's huge. I mean, have coffee with them, ask them, like, what do they do? How are things going for them? That right there is hyper important is actually how I built my relationships even throughout my career.

I've always taken, genuine interest in people and how I can help them get elevated to the next level. Of course it helps that I am in the human capital capacity. That's my job to do. You also get a lot of HR people who don't really do that. They just function on the operational side of HR. I've incredibly valued the connection and the human community connection, especially now post COVID is going to be huge. So, take that time, get to know one person, write it down, make sure that you do this again tomorrow. It's definitely good practice.

: Absolutely. Ask them how they're doing. What's important to them. What did they do on vacation? What was important to them, like what's important in their lives, get to know them because people are not always all about work. Especially like when we talk about work-life balance these days, right? So, people want to talk about something else other than their immediate responsibilities. When you're building a relationship, ask people what matters to them the most. You can always talk about work. That's, that's a common ground. It could be a quick opener, right? If you don't know where to start, talking about work could be a good opener, but then segue into something personal people want to be acknowledged as humans.

And, that's, what's going to be important in the long run is that you saw the other person as they were and for who they were versus the title or the job that they hold.

: Certainly. I want to make sure that we clarify that influence not, manipulate, right? It’s two different things. When you influence somebody, you get that buy-in. The influence happens when whatever it is that you're communicating is applicable to the person you're communicating this to. The other person sees that as value or as something that they can buy into. If you're looking to influence your employees, or even you want to influence somebody on social media is providing the value. Providing the insight and perhaps a tool of how to do something. Something that's important to that person, something that engages and elevates that person is what will get you the influence. Building the right connection coming from an authentic place is going to be key.

I keep on saying the one thing that's hugely important is getting to know the other person and understand their needs. And I don't mean surface needs. We all sometimes communicate well, I would like a simple example. I would like some water. Okay, great. Why would you like some water? Well, I am thirsty. It can be any juice. The point is that, like, don't go just by the surface answer, dig deep. Ask why is that important to you? What can you do with this? What do I mean? What are you looking to accomplish? Don't stop at the first response, always ask what's the underlying issue and relate to somebody and at their core.

: About what, give me some context here.

Another way to build influence within your team, you have to develop trust.

: Let me make sure I understand this properly. You have a leader who has a project or a task that they want to launch. Correct? They want their team to be engaged in that project. Correct? How do you start a conversation about what needs to happen? Okay. So, so influencing actually has to happen before this happens. By the time you're asking somebody to do something, the person over here has to be already influenced, you know what I mean? They're already following you. You're asking them to do something, it's a natural thing for them to execute on this. So, which means that they already know why they're doing this. If you're looking to tell people that's what needs to happen, make sure that you're clearly communicating what it is that they need to do. You're clearly assigning roles. You're clearly asking questions. Do you understand what needs to happen? How do you, what tools do you need? Ask them to actually speak back to you, how they understand it, but don't do it like in an interrogation style. I just want to make sure you understand, this is a new project. How do you envision the project? That's a good question to ask. How do you envision this task? What are some ideas you currently have as to how you're going to approach it.

That creates buy-in because that creates creative juices for your employee, to jump in and start strategizing. At the same time, you're also listening for whether the employee has actually understood what you just asked them to do. The whole point here is that you close that loop where you're not speaking to the employee, but the employee is actually repeating it back to you. There's a clear understanding between both you and the employee as to what needs to happen, by when it needs to happen. What's reasonable. Sometimes even for you as a lead or, as a manager or, whatever, it's a bit of a hot moment as you're thinking through a situation, right? Maybe you had either unreasonable expectations, you thought something could have been done in two weeks. You're realizing this through a collaborative approach to problem solving, or you're realizing that, maybe you're short-staffed, or maybe, this is a much easier project and this can be done very easily. So you have to give that opportunity for the other person to come up with ideas. You're not doing one directional communication. So, and as a good leader, I mean, if you really want to influence somebody, that buy-in loop absolutely needs to happen. This is how influence happens, because trust is there.

Another way to build influence within your team, you have to develop trust.

So, and again, this kind of goes into the whole thing of relationship building is as you're digging deep, you're building trust. And that's the most important thing. Trust goes a very long way. Trust here is now on both sides. You now trust the employee because you have a clear understanding of how they're going to be doing things. Your employee has trust in you because now you have given them autonomy to be creative and problem-solving. It's a bit of a loop, but, honestly, it's definitely very much worth it. As far as influence building, as I said, when you're communicating your goals, from the get-go, this is where you need to get that big buy-in. The buy-in and influence actually happen a little ahead of the actual project.

: Absolutely. And that's exactly right. Right. Actually, what is a brilliant thing, and this is maybe something that the community can learn right now. I spoke, I said something, what Pianpian did is she repeated back to me exactly what she'd heard. This is amazing. This is how you get by. This is a prime example, how to get buy-in. She spoke, she got the key points from everything I just said. It took me like five minutes to describe this. It took her two seconds to repeat it back to me, but that right there made me feel heard, understood. Now I know we're on the same page. That is exactly what a leader should do.

: Okay. I'm going to be philosophical here. So, I don't want to say there's no such thing as tough. Because it's a perception. And what's tough. One person is not really tough with the other person. It's kinda hard to view it this way. Everybody has tough conversations, so the way they perceive them to be as tough. The thing is, you have to understand that is your perception and reframe it. Reframe it in your mind. As soon as that mindset shift happens, it's no longer a dreadful conversation. It's more of an educational conversation, right? This is a conversation now about your core, you communicating your core. And about communicating your beliefs.

It's about getting buy-in and clarity with the person that you communicating with. The first thing to do is make sure that you get rid of the word tough. Again, you don't want to be like, say it's not there. Obviously, it’s there, these are your feelings. You absolutely should acknowledge that, but reframe it into more of something that's productive. Something that you're able to resolve. Treat it as a conversation, but you still have to, shift how you feel about it.

Sometimes, like I said, if you're preparing for a tough conversation, maybe it's a centering exercise or maybe it's the meditation that gets you out of your head and out of your feelings and helps you center as your approach that. So you are approaching it more from the pragmatic, balanced standpoint, versus from an emotional standpoint, because ultimately when we react with emotion, we're not in control. When you want to have a tough conversation, you want to be really clear of mind and you want to have control over your thought process and your emotions. You want to make sure that you're able to communicate clearly, not emotionally driven. The thing with tough conversations frequently, they come out with a burst.

The point is that you have to approach any conversations like that. With respect for yourself and your opponent. So, first and foremost, decide what is it that you stand for and what is important to you. Like, where are your values in that? The tough conversations are happening because there's some form of a disagreement, where there is clearly not an alignment. Maybe it's not alignment on values. Maybe it's not alignment on direction, action, whatever it might be. The point is that there's a misalignment. You have to be really clear as to what's important for you.

How important is that for you? Is this something that you're willing to negotiate or is this something that is absolutely 100% what it is? Now you're really clear on what you want and what is negotiable and what's not. You're proceeding, actually communicating the truth. That is the hardest thing to do because we're most afraid as people of rejection. Again, this is a very primitive, fear, right? Because if we're rejected, we're no longer part of the community. So we don't survive, we die. That's the end, right? So it's understanding that's where this is coming from. And bringing it back to communicating your truth, it's entirely possible that you will disagree, but it will not be the end of the world. Otherwise, this would be a negotiable thing.

If something's not negotiable, you have to communicate your truth and you have to do it in the most empathetic way. Sometimes you have to say no to somebody. Just respect that, but you can communicate that and in the most compassionate way. You don't need to just cut somebody off. The point is you still have to validate the other person's feelings if you want to continue that relationship. So this is what we're talking about. The relationship is super important. Find the positive ways in that. So you disagree with this. This is the authentic response you took, you said that this is this way. Allow for that person to receive, I mean, give the person the capability to feel.

And acknowledge that and be okay with that. Because we usually blow right past that. And because we just can't deal with other people's emotions. Allow for that space and prepare for that ahead of time, pause, literally just pause and allow the person to react. Whatever the person says to you, whatever they will say, and most likely, they will acknowledge their frustration or maybe disagreement or whatever.

Speak about what you can offer instead. Maybe you don't want to collaborate with somebody on something, but maybe there's another way somebody can make a valuable contribution. If they want to work with you and they want to do something with you, they obviously are expressing an effort that is not aligning with you over here. But think about where would you align and communicate that alignment to that person simply because it may not be over here, but it may be over here. Allow for that opportunity to continue the relationship. You're not cutting off the opportunity to interact. You're looking for future collaboration. Sometimes people might surprise you.

You want to give the opportunity, you want to think about where else might this work, or how else might this work. Maybe if it's a relationship with your spouse. We're so comfortable in just cutting things off, but, hold on for a minute and evaluate what would work. Propose something. I think that will go a long way. If this is a professional relationship, think of how else you can collaborate. What else can you do? Maybe you have an introduction to somebody or maybe, it's a smaller project that this person can do for you. So allow for that. You will be surprised how grateful people will be for that, you gave them the honest opinion, but you see them as valuable. Offering them some kind of value.

Even though it may not be the right fit right here right now, but you're doing something here that will go a very long way. I think that's probably the way to go. Does that make sense? There was a really important explanation here. I think it's super valuable.

Let me kind of summarize, what someone can take away as actionable steps. One is making sure yourself as centered, and you can do that by possibly like meditation in a way that helps yourself to get calm before you get into a conversation and then change a mindset and then say, okay, it's a conversation. Don't presume that it's going to be tough. It might not be, or even if it is it's okay. It's an opportunity, right? It's an exchange of your thoughts and there are also opportunities for you to voice your truth.

Then, during the conversation give the person a chance to express their feelings if there's feeling there and acknowledge that if needed. Also take it as a way to find a middle ground, if you have kind of misalignment. And that's for an opportunity to do something forward. You're not just finding the middle ground, because sometimes there may not be a middle ground. I mean, in personal relationships, maybe it's more so, but in more professional relationships, it's finding another opportunity potentially.

: Exactly. That's right.

I think finding yourself a mentor is going to be a huge thing.

: I think finding yourself a mentor is going to be a huge thing.

Think of your life as a CEO. You're the CEO of you, right? So, every CEO has a board of advisors. You have somebody who can help you steer in the right direction. Somebody who can advise you on the best network to pursue, the best relationships to develop, the best introductions. Somebody who will be able to kind of help you stay the course. If you can find yourself a mentor, somebody who you respect.

I'm all for something in return. This is another relationship. I think that people are usually flattered to be mentors. They are gifting their valuable time to you, so be prepared to share something back. Getting a mentor could be a huge career growth opportunity. I have seen, really successful executives have had mentors early on. Another way to approach this is of course getting a coach. I think those two are not mutually exclusive.

So, having a mentor is one thing, but having a coach that keeps you accountable and keeps you moving forward, and keeps growing and developing professionally is absolutely key.

: So, having a mentor is one thing, but having a coach that keeps you accountable and keeps you moving forward, and keeps growing and developing professionally is absolutely key.

What a mentor does is not coaching. So mentorship is not coaching and coaching is not mentorship equally. I think both are hugely important, but if you have to invest in one in your career, at least seek out a mentor first, simply because it will give you more direction as to where you're headed. Hire a coach to help you get on that trajectory.

: Well, they're certainly industry experts. There are groups for mentorships. Of course, it depends on whether or not you have access to the board resources. If you are not an entrepreneur on your own. Maybe you are within the corporate environment. Sometimes asking the board for recommendation for mentor can certainly be something as a possibility. I think that most VCs do recommendations for mentorship programs. I would say, if you have access to that, then yes. If you're more on the managerial level, then I say, you reach out to folks, within your network.

I think that's a huge opportunity for you to build your network, but B also builds a very close relationship with people who inspire you, who you aspire to be. Find that person that you think has done a really great job and interview them. Ask them, how are they doing? Talk to several people before jumping into a mentorship program. You don't want to take the first person that comes off the street, right? That's great that works out, but I would have several conversations and see who it is that you are most aligned with. Make sure that you are aligned.

With that mentor who can guide you through your career, who does have a coaching leadership style or a servant leadership style. The person is already capable of giving the right feedback. They've already been doing this in their career, so they will be happy to take you on as part of that. I think that's certainly the way to go. If you are on a more junior level, the same approach, as for, managerial level, look at somebody who you aspire to be, somebody who is several levels above you. If you're a manager, maybe you're looking for a VP to a C level. It just depends.

So, think about, you want to be not just one step above, you want to be potentially two steps above because you're looking to be that next step. So, so you want to allow for some feedback as to how to move past that, right? So you want somebody who has a bigger vision than just, one level above, just, my general recommendations. I've also seen, amazing mentors who've been just one level difference. So you kind of have to have your right fit and the open conversations and open-ended conversations. You don't want to ask yes and no questions. You want to explore the person and build a deeper relationship before you ask them to be an advisor to you. I think that's certainly key. And, make sure it's the right fit communication-wise. Because you want to be open to receiving that person's feedback, positive or negative.

: Correct. Exactly. That's exactly what you want to do. You obviously want to learn more about this person's career and their accomplishments and how they've done it. Does this resonate with you? Is this something that's in alignment with your career vision? So, and before you get a mentor, don't be set on your mission because you very well may change it, but at least have some idea. If you need more feedback, then reach out to your network. I mean, like have some more conversations before committing to something because you want to make sure that you have given yourself an ample opportunity to explore options.

: You're very welcome Pianpian! It was a pleasure.